Baloney, ‘David Quinn: The beliefs of the church are not going to change by poll’...but the Pope apologizes centuries later for Pope Crimes and Vatican Evils

Updated April 22, 2012

Opus Dei Pied Piper David Quinn wroe another article entitled "Outspoken clergy must be clear on endgame", see news update below.  David Quinn need to study history of Pope Crimes and Vatican Evils when the Pope and the Vatican were so wrong about almost everything in the universe, but because of their monopoly of the BIG LIE - that only they and priests can reincarnate Jesus in the Eucharist - they jailed or killed those who disagreed with them, take the case when the Vatican believed that the earth was the center of the universe and the sun and all other planets revolved aroudn the earth, so the Vatican jailed and silenced Galileo and punished astronomers who disagreed with them.  Liekwise today, Fr. Tony Flaherty and the Irish priests and all Catholics should learn from the La Sapienza Unviersity students who refused to allow Benedict XVI to speak at their convocation because of what he said in the PAST against Galileo, read our related article and coverage, Benedict XVI rejected by Rome's Sapienza University students and professors http://pope-ratz.blogspot.ca/2008/01/benedict-xvi-rejected-by-romes-sapienza.html

These statements prove David Quinn is the Vatican Pied Piper and Opus Dei mouthpiece: "The most the church can do to someone these days is to forbid them to speak or write about a given issue as a Catholic, or in a Catholic publication or institute".
"Meanwhile the silence of the Irish hierarchy is deafening. It has little or nothing to say about the ACP, one way or the other."

 David Quinn, instead of making statements, cleverly pose them as questions, like in the game of jeopardy, to give answers, it must be in the form of a question.  So Quinn cleverly reiterates Rome's stance in forms of questions, against liberal minded priests -- who are today's Galileos.

Read our compilation on Fr. Tony Flaherty http://popecrimes.blogspot.ca/2012/04/hypocrite-benedict-silenced-outspoken.html
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The sooner The Hague puts Benedict XVI for his crimes against humanity into trial, the better, and we will see how the Vatican Dream Team will try to defend him for his ‘unchanging beliefs’ that it was all right to cover-up thousands of pedophile priests as Cardinal Ratzinger during the 27 years papacy of John Paul II.  John Paul II apologized for Pope Crimes and Vatican Evils but he was hiding inside his papal evil Achilles Heels Fr. Marcial Maciel and Cardinal Bernard Law who confessed in public that he transferred from one parish to another 80 pedophile priests in Boston, read our related article, Heil Satanas JP2 Patron Saint of Pedophiles, Pederasts Rapists-Priests! John Paul II is the same yesterday and today-- he cannot protect children.  http://jp2m.blogspot.ca/2011/05/heil-satanas-jp2-patron-saint-of.html Cardinal Ratzinger and John Paul II were the pair of hands that helmed the Vatican Titanic Ship now sinking in moral bankruptcy.  And what a coincidence, or god-incidence, that the Titanic celebrates its 100^th anniversary and the Vatican Titanic Ship celebrates its 10^th anniversary in Boston and two trials are now on-going in Philadelphia and Stockton, read our related article Trial of William Lynn: A compilation. Philadelphia JP2 Army - John Paul II Pedophile Priests Army http://popecrimes.blogspot.ca/2012/04/trial-of-willaim-lynn-compilation.html

So David Quinn, the Opus Dei Pied Piper in Ireland is at it again defending the mighty Vatican totalitarianism, may the United Nations end the status of the Vatican as a “country” soon so that we do not have to listen to Baloney and Vatican Holy Shit like this anymore.  David Quinn’s main message is, shut up you morons, the Vatican and the Pope is the almighty Infallible Boss and you can yell as much as you want, but the Vatican Billions in the Vatican Bank will not be peeked at by women and their priestly children, read our related article Hypocrite Benedict silenced outspoken priest Fr Tony Flannery – A compilation… but he does not silence Cardinal Bernard Law and JP2 Army – John Paul II Pedophile Priests http://popecrimes.blogspot.ca/2012/04/hypocrite-benedict-silenced-outspoken.html

If it was up to the Vatican, we would still not be hearing about the JP2 Army today, the John Paul II Pedophile Priests Army in the USA and countries in Europe, and today we would not be having the trial of Monsignor Lynn…and soon the trial of Bishop Finn, read our updates and all articles about the trial here insane KC STAR CAMPAIGN HITS by Catholic League fanatic Bill Donohue propagating... Bishop Finn make Devil's Bowels smell like roses in KC, Missouri http://popecrimes.blogspot.ca/2011/11/bishop-finn-makes-devils-bowels-smell.html If it was not up to the opinion poll of the Boston Globe and the media, all the names of the pedophile priests would be shredded just like Cardinal

And if it was up to the unchanging beliefs of the church, the crimes against humanity of Benedict XVI would not have reached The Hague today, read about it here http://popecrimes.blogspot.ca/2012/03/benedict-ratzinger-marcial-maciel-are-2.html and the Prime Minister of Ireland would not ahve announced to the Irish Parliament of the Vatican culture as of today, its narcissism...elitism...disconnect and dysfunction, http://popecrimes.blogspot.ca/2011/12/eucharist-feeds-dysfunction.html and http://popecrimes.blogspot.com/2011/09/hague-is-asked-to-investigate-vatican.html 

Our first article on David Quinn on February 13, 2010

 http://pope-ratz.blogspot.ca/2010/02/what-planet-are-you-from-david-quinn.html

What planet are you from, David Quinn: Time to commend Pope for response to abuse is baloney -- Benedict XVI condoned & covered-up priests pedophiles

David Quinn’s defence of Benedict XVI is one of the most superficial, nonsensical and ludicrous thus far. David Quinn and John Allen Jr are two of the most pathetic defenders of Benedict XVI. Catholics who read and buy into their professional journalism defending Benedict XVI are pathetic as well.

Wake up, Catholics. Benedict XVI to beatify John Paul II “is brought to nothing” by St. Paul http://pope-ratz.blogspot.com/2010/02/pope-benedict-never-defended-children.html. David Quinn and John Allen Jr, AP writers and Catholic writers (which we’ll include in the near future) are like John Paul II the Great clashing cymbals of St. Paul http://pope-ratz.blogspot.com/2010/02/pope-benedict-never-defended-children.html.)

On the feast of Our Lady of Lourdes, we posted several important news about the John Paul II Pedophile Priests Army that are erupting in Germany and Ireland, and we demand the resignation of Cardinal Bernard Law as Archpriest in Rome. On the eve of the Irish bishops meeting in Rome and a (one) letter from survivors asking for 1 billion euros as compensation from Benedict XVI -- the Catholic media spinners, like David Quinn and John Allen Jr, are now in full force.

Let us analyse David Quinn’s defence, which are pathetic lies like Benedict XVI condemns abuse of children by priests 3 DECADES LATE…Cardinal Ratzinger Pope B16 is a pathological liar

David Quinn’s first sentence and paragraph is already a complete lie. He says: “We are led to believe that the Pope has said and done practically nothing about child abuse by priests. In actual fact, he has said and done quite a lot.” “We are led to believe” by whom, by what? We do not need to be “led to believe” about anything, Benedict XVI has proven everything, all by himself, by his own deeds and words see Pope Benedict NEVER defended children abused by priests during his lifetime of 82 years – proofs are in the books written by him and about him

“In actual fact, he has said and done quite a lot.” This is the worst lie of David Quinn. We have been pointing all the concrete steps Benedict XVI has taken in this weblog and Benedict XVI is nothing but an old dog with old tricks and like the little boy who cried, “Wolf, wolf, wolf”, no one believes him anymore. His 3 decades of inaction and cover-up make his now “condemnation” a hypocrite’s crocodile tears. So these professional journalists and newspapers have to come in his defence and make his pathological lies appear like truth.

Yeah, David Quinn points out that Benedict XVI “spoke about child abuse while on the plane to America.” That’s right; it was ‘over coffee’ with John Allen Jr. Allen who trivializes clergy abuse like “worst fashion blunders” see our earlier posts in The John Paul II Millstone http://pope-ratz.blogspot.com/2010/02/pope-benedict-never-defended-children.html

It is pathetic how these professional journalists are defending the pathological LIAR-POPE Benedict XVI hence they themselves are pathological liars. They are all made of the same white cloth, the dark pope dressed in white, and these writers are also dark demons dressed in words of white to deceive the 1.2 billion Catholics.

We put our comments in bracket in David Quinn: Time to comment Pope for response to abuse. Notice that like John Allen Jr, Quinn does not say “pedophile priests” but rather uses vague terms like “clerical sex abusers” and he meticulously choose when to put the general word “priests”. Protestants and other faiths have clerics. Only Catholics have “priests”. But of course the Opus Dei want to glorify priests and the pope, especially John Paul II, so whenever you see, writers like David Quinn and John Allen Jr using vague terms to discuss the most heinous Catholic Pedophile priests criminals, you can be sure they are there to deceive you.

Our comments are in brackets.

David Quinn: Time to commend Pope for response to abuse

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/david-quinn-time-to-commend-pope-for-response-to-abuse-2060239.html

We are led to believe (What planet are you from, David Quinn, nobody need to be led, and no one can lead people about the truth of 12,000 American victims in the USA harmed by the John Paul II Pedophile Priests Army, we simply have to look at the history and facts of 2.2 billion dollars paid to the these victims who are living witnesses to these priestly crimes. What do you mean by “We are led to believe” by whom exactly? By SNAP? By Abuse Tracker? By Bishops Accountability? By Martians? You use vague cluster of words typical of a professional deceiver like John Allen Jr.) that the Pope has said and done practically nothing about child abuse by priests (He did absolutely nothing for 82 years see Pope Benedict NEVER defended children abused by priests during his lifetime of 82 years – proofs are in the books written by him and about him http://pope-ratz.blogspot.com/2010/02/pope-benedict-never-defended-children.html)

The truth is Pope Benedict XVI covered-up the John Paul II Pedophile Priests Army during the 26 years papacy of JP2). In actual fact, he has said and done quite a lot. (This is the biggest lie in this whole article -- because Benedict XVI condemns abuse of children by priests 3 DECADES LATE…Cardinal Ratzinger Pope B16 is a pathological liar http://pope-ratz.blogspot.com/2010/02/you-go-ireland-make-benedict-xvi-pay-1.html )

It is important to put this on the record ahead of the meeting between the Irish Catholic hierarchy and Pope Benedict XVI next week, because perceptions matter so much. (Right, you are trying to manipulate people’s perception of Benedict XVI. Your purpose is to media-spin for Benedict XVI whose back is now against the wall. See the entire article from John Cooney: Scandals, splits and a battle for the Pope's ear Tuesday February 02 2010 that says: THE famous Latin saying, 'Roma locuta est, causa finita est' -- 'Rome has spoken, the case is closed' -- will not apply in Pope Benedict's promised Lenten Pastoral to the Catholics of Ireland on clerical child sex abuse and the cover-ups of paedophile priests by church authorities http://pope-ratz.blogspot.com/2010/02/you-go-ireland-make-benedict-xvi-pay-1.html.)

For example, in 2006 the Pope met with all of the Irish bishops in Rome, condemned the "egregious crime" of child abuse and told the bishops "to take whatever steps are necessary to prevent it occurring again, to ensure principles of justice are fully respected, and above all to bring healing". (You are lying again, Benedict XVI is all empty talk, so what if he ‘condemned’ in 2006, fact is, he did nothing after that brief speech, until today 2010. Fact is Benedict XVI could not prevent and stop Ireland’s Ryan and Murphy reports, and now his back is against the wall).

In 2008, he visited both the US and Australia. He spoke about child abuse while on the plane to America. He spoke about it in New York and Washington. (“Spoke” is all he does, empty cheap papal talk). He held a 25-minute meeting with abuse victims. (25 minutes is nothing compared to the 26 years of cover-up he did during John Paul II’s papacy) He was praised in 'Time' magazine, and in lots of other media, for his "forthrightness on sexual abuse". (‘Time’ magazine is owned by Opus Dei, so of course they will praise him. "Forthrightness on sexual abuse" is a pathological lie because B16 acted on the contrary. “On sexual abuse” is vague, by whom? Sexual abuse by aliens? Why don’t you say “pedophile priests”? Did you know that there were protests by SNAP everywhere he went and ‘Time’ magazine and the media-owned Opus Dei barely mentioned them? In New York, SNAP asked the United Nations NOT to allow Benedict XVI to speak before the UN. SNAP was suing Benedict XVI for violation against children’s human rights before the UN court. You don’t know American history, David Quinn. See our earlier posts and coverage of B16’s American trip)

In Australia, he also condemned child abuse and met with more victims. (“Condemned” is Benedict XVI way of crying Wolf, wolf, wolf”. No one believes his pathological lies and speeches anymore.)

In 2008, he had a group of Canadian victims flown to Rome to meet with him. (These were native Indians who were naïve and were manipulated and paid by the Opus Dei who gave them a nice free trip and free tour to Rome, the first time they left Canada and first time they went to Europe).

The Pope met with Cardinal Sean Brady and Archbishop Diarmuid Martin to discuss child abuse following the publication of the Ryan report last summer. (Of course he had to be shown the report of Irish crimes which he already knew so well because he covered-up the John Paul II Pedophile Priests Army in Ireland, in USA, in Germany and around the world as Prefect of the Inquisition or CDF Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Benedict XVI possess lots of faith but he has ZERO CHAIRITY for the victims of the John Paul II Pedophile Priests Army just like John Paul II did not have the charity of Mother Teresa see the John Paul II MIllstone)

He told them again to do everything possible to ensure that justice was done and said that the abuse could not reoccur. (Wolf, wolf, wolf. The justice the Irish victims are seeking is not empty papal cheap talk see our earlier post)

Following the publication of the Murphy report, he again met Dr Brady and Dr Martin and again condemned clerical sex abusers for their betrayal of children. (David Duinn, you are really a pathological liar for repeating that Benedict XVI “condemned clerical sex abusers for their betrayal of children”. You use the word “clerical” a vague term and does not specifically refer to Catholic priests. Benedict XVI did NOT condemned but ordered the Crimen Sollicitationis and absolute silence to cover-up these pedophile priests. Benedict XVI ordered the absolute silence and the transfer of pedophile priests from one parish to another as long as they performed the black magic of the Eucharist see http://stella0maris.blogspot.com/ )

Only this week, in a speech on the family, he said: "The church does not cease to condemn and will not cease to deplore and condemn" those who violate children. (Benedict XVI is a pathological liar. His speech about priest pedophiles are all lies, lies, lies. What Benedict XVI did is explained well in John Paul II Pedophile Priests Army erupts in Berlin, Germany http://pope-ratz.blogspot.com/2010/02/you-go-ireland-make-benedict-xvi-pay-1.html)

Before becoming Pope, Benedict was responsible for releasing 'Sacramentorum Sanctitatis Tutela'. Far from it ordering the 'cover-up' of abuse cases as some have alleged, this instruction fast-tracked the defrocking of priests found guilty of child abuse. (So what, he never implemented this, instead he imposed Crimen Sollicitationis - See the videos wherein Benedict XVI ordered the covered-up of pedophile priests all over the world and threatened every priest and bishop with excommunication if they spoke about it to the press or the police.)

Hundreds of priests have now been 'defrocked', or laicised, because of it -- eight in the Ferns Diocese alone. Two more cases involving Ferns priests are pending. (Oh, really, hundreds of priests? Pathological lie, again. Fact is, Benedict XVI was more busy reading and reading the books of Jesuits Jon Sobrino, Roger Haight and Jacques Dupuis so he can “silence” them see our earlier posts on Jon sobrino)

All 10 of these cases are known to the civil authorities. The church procedure for laicising priests works in parallel to investigations by the civil authorities, not in opposition. (Baloney, the Catholic Bishops, per order of Benedict XVI, spend hundreds of millions of dollars on lawyers so that the victims and survivors cannot sue the dioceses, keep the documents sealed and not public, and make sure the victims will get the least amount of settlements possible)

Ahead of the Rome meeting, something else needs to be put on the record -- namely that from around the mid-1990s, the Dublin Diocese began to deal with abuse allegations in a far better fashion than it had previously. (Baloney, see Bishops Accountability for their true stories of cover-up)

For this piece of information we can be thankful for the analysis of the Murphy report offered by Fr Padraig McCarthy in the current issue of 'The Furrow'. (He is in the service of the pope to find fault in the Murphy report. See other analyses in the full article by John Cooney: Scandals, splits and a battle for the Pope's ear Tuesday February 02 2010 http://pope-ratz.blogspot.com/2010/02/benedict-xvi-in-rome-has-spoken-case-is.html)

His analysis shows "that of the 45 cases in which the report gives an assessment, handling by the church in 25 cases receives some sort of approval from the commission; 20 cases receive varying degrees of criticism". (Wolf, wolf, wolf)
Those 25 cases date from roughly the mid-1990s. Most people wrongly assume it is only in the last four or five years, not the last 14 or 15, that the diocese has begun to get things right. (Wolf, wolf, wolf)

We, and Rome, also need to be reminded of one of the key findings of the Murphy report, which is that one of the reasons abuse cases were so badly handled is that canon law had fallen into disuse in Ireland from around the 1960s. (Blame the canon law, not the bishops like Cardinal Law and Mahony who covered-up hundreds of pedophile priests. Blame the victims and not the pedophile priests. Typical of Vatican media-spinners)

If canon law had been properly used, offending clerics would have been removed from ministry in many cases instead of being sent off for therapy. (Since when was one single pedophile priests removed because of canon law? A priest was removed because of the uproar of the media and victims, or by organizations like SNAP. Now we are discovering that Ireland even sent those priests to Boston, that is how the Church with its canon law dealt with pedophile priests – by transfers from one parish to another, from one country - this proves that Benedict XVI did absolutely NOTHING to condemn or remove any member of the John Paul II Pedophile Priests Army)

Let us also remind ourselves of who it was that threw canon law in the bin. It was liberal clergy who deemed it too 'legalistic' and who, even now, are presenting themselves as the saviours of the church. (Baloney, now you are starting to blame “liberal clergy”? A new media spin! The only one to blame here is Cardinal Ratzinger who reinforced Crimen sollicitationis)

What will come out of next week's meeting with the bishops? Hopefully, a sort of Marshall Plan for the church in Ireland. (Too late, no Marhall Plan can save the sinking ship of the Vatican see the John Paul II Millstone)

The abuse scandals are only one part -- the worst part, obviously -- of a general crisis of faith and leadership in the Irish church. (The crisis started with the leadership of Cardinal Ratzinger now Benedict XVI in Rome)

The Vatican can help to address this by appointing stronger, more capable bishops, something the current selection process in this country is failing to do. (The Vatican’s days are numbered because it has become the pedophiliac altar of Venerable John Paul II and Benedict XVI and the Vatican will fall into rubbles like the Temple of Solomon see the predictions in the John Paul II Millstone http://jp2m.blogspot.com/2009/11/john-paul-ii-great-clashing-cymbal-of.html)

This process is overly reliant on the advice of other Irish bishops and priests and too often it has thrown up precisely the sort of men who stood by while canon law was thrown in the bin, and who then, hypocritically, hid behind it when their actions vis-a-vis the scandals were criticised. (Empty clashing cymbals about canon law; see the countless books about canon law and doctrine by Benedict XVI who did not have the time of day to read SNAP, Abuse Tracker and Bishops Accountability Pope Benedict NEVER defended children abused by priests during his lifetime of 82 years – proofs are in the books written by him and about him )

Six dioceses in Ireland are either vacant or about to fall vacant. The present nuncio needs to be given a mission to put the right men in those dioceses. (So what if they are vacant, the churches and seminaries are almost vacant - see photos in the John Paul II Pedophile Priests Army)

By all means consult with the priests or the bishops, but if this consultation process is not producing names that will offer strong leadership on the national and diocesan stage, then either the nuncio or Rome need to come up with their own names. (“Producing names” for “strong leadership” from priests who perform the black magic of the Eucharist http://stella0maris.blogspot.com/

The leadership of Benedict XVI and the 4 Irish Bishops who just resigned, Cardinal Mahony, Cardinal Bernard Law and Cardinal George, unfortunately, 95 percent of Bishops are all criminal leaders of the John Paul II Pedophile Priests Army.)

This is the best thing the Pope can do for the beleaguered church in Ireland. (The best thing that Benedict XVI can do is to resign and quit sitting on the trillion dollar Chair of Peter because he is guilty as hell as the General Commander of the John Paul II Pedophile Priests Army for over 26 years
- David Quinn, Irish Independent, dquinn@independentt.ie

April 13, 2012

David Quinn: The beliefs of the church are not going to change by poll

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/david-quinn-the-beliefs-of-the-church-are-not-going-to-change-by-poll-3080035.html

Friday April 13 2012

The findings of the survey commissioned by the Association of Catholic Priests (ACP) are not even in the tiniest bit surprising. We have known for years that on issue after issue many or most Catholics, even weekly Mass-going Catholics, do not believe what their church believes.

The press release by the ACP says the survey "reveals a significant disconnect between official Catholic Church teaching and what Catholics actually believe".

That is absolutely correct, but the question is what should be done about it? Does the church alter its teachings in line with the latest opinion poll or must it instead do a much better job explaining to Catholics and the general public why it believes what it believes?

The poll zeroed in on the teachings liberal Catholics want to see changed, for example celibacy, women priests and on sexuality generally.

Huge majorities want the Catholic Church to allow married priests and women priests.

But two other questions arise here. First, would allowing married priests and women priests revive the fortunes of the church by making it more 'relevant', and second, should these teachings be changed regardless of the effect on the life of the church?

In answer to the first question, allowing married priests and women priests would not result in very much of an increase in vocations, nor would it lead to a rush back to the pews.

It has done this for no church anywhere. This point cannot be stressed often enough because hardly anyone seems to be aware of it. The Lutheran Churches of Scandinavia have changed teaching after teaching in line with liberal opinion. For example, they routinely allow same-sex marriages to take place in their churches. They have had women bishops, never mind priests, for years.

But in Scandinavia hardly anyone attends church services. Liberal Christians and their secular cheer-leaders need to think long and hard about this. Why is it that the churches where their every 'remedy' has been introduced are not thriving? Worse than that, why have they shrivelled up even faster than the churches that have not altered their teachings?

I have never heard a satisfactory answer to this question from liberal Christians. They don't like the question because they find it impossible to answer.

So instead they change the subject and insist that regardless of whether allowing women priests etc will revive the fortunes of a church, it is the right thing to do in any case.

But if that is so, then why run an opinion poll about it? It is either the right thing to do or it isn't.

If it's the right thing to do, then do it, regardless of whether a majority are in favour of the change or a majority are against it.

If an opinion poll tomorrow revealed that a majority of Catholics no longer believe that the bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Christ during the Mass, should that teaching be changed too? It is either true or it isn't true that this happens, regardless of what a poll reveals.

Likewise, if a poll showed that a majority of Christians no longer believed in the literal bodily resurrection of Christ. Again, the resurrection either happened or it didn't regardless of what we believe.

In other words, opinion polls and their findings, while very interesting, are entirely irrelevant as to the question of whether this or that teaching should be changed. The teaching should be changed only if what was previously taught turns out to be false.

If it is true that Christ has not authorised the church to ordain women then it can't ordain women. (Of course, whether Jesus did or didn't authorise it to do so is a very controversial question.)

But if the question of whether something is true or untrue can't be decided by a popular vote, how is it decided? The church believes these matters are decided by the use of reason and by reference to the Bible and by reference to the life and practice of the church.

The chief reason why many Catholics no longer believe what their church believes on certain issues is that the church itself has neglected to explain to them these beliefs. By the church I mean particularly the church here in Ireland.

As a rule neither priests nor bishops bother to explain the teachings on women priests, on celibacy, on sexuality and so on. Combine this with the fact that the media in general support all of these things then it is no wonder we are faced with the present situation.

Indeed, a certain number of priests and bishops directly contradict what their church teaches on these matters.

What is really needed then is more and better explanation of why the church believes what it believes.

But apart from that it should be perfectly plain to anyone with a bit of wit that the truth of a matter can't be decided by a show of hands or an opinion poll.

Update April 22, 2012

David Quinn: Outspoken clergy must be clear on endgame

IRELAND
Irish Independent

Friday April 20 2012

What is the endgame of the Association of Catholic Priests? Suppose it can't force the church to allow women priests, or to approve the use of artificial contraception or to change its teachings on sexuality more generally, what then?

Obviously the ACP would never think that on its own it can bring about these changes. Presumably it hopes that in alliance with like-minded Catholics around the world it can do so, but what if it can't?

In that event, does it formally go into schism? Do its members leave the church? Or do they eventually accept that these are the unchanging teachings of the church and learn to live with them?

In the end, this is a debate about authority. Does the church have the authority to teach that certain things are true, or not?

It's all very well for members of the ACP to say that church teachings on matters such as the charging of interest on loans has changed (it hasn't actually), but this can easily give the impression that every teaching is up for grabs.

Does the ACP really believe this? If not, then how does it distinguish between the teachings that are non-negotiable and those which are up for discussion?

Is it everything short of what's in the Apostles' Creed? If so, then they have a very narrow view of what the church can teach definitively. Or is even the Apostles' Creed up for grabs as some theologians believe?

Unless and until the ACP sets out exactly how it views the teaching authority of the church it belongs to, then we can't know when the ACP believes a particular teaching is subject to change, and why.

Until it clarifies this, then ordinary Catholics could be forgiven for thinking the ACP believes most teachings are up for grabs and in that case it will sow endless confusion and dissension because it will encourage Catholics to believe -- erroneously -- that very few teachings are ever settled doctrine.

In such an eventuality, the ACP would become a deeply divisive force in the church which it surely doesn't want to be.

A second and related area is whether or not it believes that the church has a right to defend its teachings up to and including using disciplinary procedures against Catholic priests, religious and theologians in certain circumstances.

The ACP complains that the Pope preached freedom in Cuba when he was there recently but denies those same freedoms to dissident priests and other Catholics in his own church.

But the analogy is false. When the State forbids certain freedoms they are forbidden to everyone who lives within the borders of that State. The most the church can do to someone these days is to forbid them to speak or write about a given issue as a Catholic, or in a Catholic publication or institute.

This is what happened to dissident theologian Hans Kung. He had his licence to teach as a Catholic theologian revoked. However, he was still free to teach theology at any university which would have him. If the State had forbidden him he would not have been able to teach anywhere.

Even in democratic societies, organisations use disciplinary measures against their members. Political parties do it all the time. For example, Willie Penrose and Patrick Nulty have both lost the Labour party whip recently for voting against the Government. But no one complains that the Labour Party is crushing freedom of conscience when it does this.

So again, the ACP must tell us whether or not it believes the church ever has the right to defend its teachings by taking action against priests, religious and theologians who openly contradict those teachings.

Meanwhile the silence of the Irish hierarchy is deafening. It has little or nothing to say about the ACP, one way or the other.

It has said nothing about the decision by the Vatican to stop Fr Tony Flannery writing in 'Reality', the Redemptorist magazine. It has said nothing about the decision by the Vatican to discipline moral theologian Fr Sean Fagan.

A case can be made on prudential grounds that the Vatican should not have disciplined either of these priests.

But equally a case can be made that the Irish bishops themselves should have acted against them, and others.

However, if disciplinary action of any sort seems too punitive, or else counter-productive then at the very least the bishops ought to make it extremely plain to ordinary Catholics which teachings of their church are definitive and which are not.

The ACP is hosting an assembly next month to discuss the future of the church in Ireland. At that meeting it ought to tell us when they regard a given teaching as definitive and whether they believe the church ever has the right to discipline priests who dissent from those teachings.

If the ACP wants to avoid becoming a source of endless division, it owes its members and the wider church answers to these vital questions.

Irish Independent

The silence of the Irish hierarchy is deafening. It has had nothing to say about the decision by the Vatican to stop Fr Tony Flannery, pictured, writing in 'Reality, the Redemptorist magazine

=========

I am a huge fan of the US justice system.  After more than 200 years, our impartial courts have “gotten it right” a vast majority of the time. It’s not perfect, but it’s the best in the world.

Here’s a great example:
Last week, a jury unanimously found that Fr. Michael Kelly was liable for abusing a boy in the 1980s. The trial is currently in its second phase to determine whether or not the Diocese of Stockton knew about the abuse and covered it up.  It took the alleged victim years to get the case in front of a jury, and 12 impartial citizens made their decisions based on the evidence. (One of Kelly’s supporters has been accused of jury tampering. Let’s hope that if true, that person is punished to the fullest extent of the law).
And another:
A Missouri judge has refused to drop misdemeanor criminal charges against Kansas City- St. Joseph Bishop Robert Finn and the Diocese. The charges stem from allegations that Finn knew that one of his priests possessed child pornography. Instead of reporting to law enforcement (possession of child pornography is a federal crime, remember?), Finn allegedly sat on the information, sent the priest out of state (?!), and didn’t warn local families that their kids may have been victims of abuse. The priest who took and kept the photos has been indicted on 13 counts of exploiting five children ages 2 to 13.
But sometimes, judges get it wrong:
A bankruptcy judge in Milwaukee has refused to make public secret church documents and depositions that outline the scope and scale of child sex abuse and cover-up in the Archdiocese of Milwaukee. The documents were produced when the Archdiocese of Milwaukee sought bankruptcy protection to avoid potentially embarrassing public civil trials.
Judge Susan V. Kelley’s reasoning? They were “too scandalous.”
Note to Judge : Civil law exists to punish wrongs, compensate victims for injury and DETER FURTHER WRONGDOING. The only way to truly punish the Archdiocese and deter further wrongdoing is to expose the full scope and scale of the abuse.  If we don’t know what church officials knew and did, how can we be sure that they won’t turn around and do it again?
This bankruptcy has nothing to do with finances. Instead, it has everything to do with silencing victims and denying them their days in court.
Yes, scandal is ugly. No one likes to learn that hundreds of kids were abused and that priests and bishops knew about the crimes and did nothing to help kids. But shining a public light on secret church files will serve every community where a predator worked. The documents will also help law enforcement who, in places like Delaware and California, used these kinds of documents to put child molesters behind bars.

Survey suggests almost 75% of Catholics think Church teaching on sexuality is irrelevant

IRELAND
RTE News

A new survey shows that the majority of Irish Catholics favour married and women priests.

It also found that the Church's teaching on sexuality was irrelevant for almost three quarters of respondents.

The Contemporary Catholic Perspectives survey was carried out for the Association of Catholic Priests by Amárach Consulting.

1,000 Catholics were questioned over a two-week period in February.

It found that there was a disconnect between official church teaching and what Catholics actually believe. 87% said priest should be allowed to marry, while 77% said women should be ordained.

Church teachings 'irrelevant' to most

IRELAND
The Irish Times

PATSY MCGARRY Religious Affairs Correspondent

The Church's teachings on sexuality have “no relevance” to 75 per cent of Irish Catholics or their families, a new survey has found.

It has also established that 87 per cent of Irish Catholics believe priests should be allowed marry, 77 per cent believe there should be women priests while 72 per cent believe older, married, men should be allowed become priests.

The Amárach survey also found weekly Mass attendance in Ireland, at 35 per cent, is one of the highest in Europe.

Commissioned by the Association of Catholic Priests (ACP), the Contemporary Catholic Perspectives survey was carried out among 1,000 Catholics throughout the island of Ireland over a two-week period in February.

Almost nine in 10 Catholics in Ireland want priests to be allowed to marry

IRELAND
The Guardian (United Kingdom)

[the survey]

Henry McDonald, Ireland correspondent
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 12 April 2012

An overwhelming majority of Catholics in Ireland want priests to be allowed to marry, according to a survey conducted on behalf of the Irish priesthood's unofficial representative association.

The Association of Catholic Priests' opinion poll, released on Thursday, found that 87% of Irish Catholics said priests should be allowed to marry.

The survey of 1,000 Catholics questioned over a fortnight in February by Amarach Consulting also discovered that 77% of believers said women should be ordained.

And 60% of Irish Catholics disagreed with the hierarchy's hardline on homosexuality. Only 9% of those polled "agreed strongly" with Catholic traditional teaching that homosexuality was immoral.

Catholics 'want married priests'

IRELAND
Bourne Local (United Kingdom)

The vast majority of Irish Catholics want women and married priests, liberal clergymen have found.

The Association of Catholic Priests (ACP), which has had one of its founding members silenced by the Vatican for his views, insists it has public support for Pope Benedict to open dialogue on the controversial bans.

The group of more than 800 priests in Ireland claimed they have a mandate from mass-goers to raise concerns after a survey revealed a disconnect between official church teachings and what ordinary Catholics believe.

Almost nine out of 10 Catholics questioned said priests should be allowed to marry, with 77% believing women should be ordained.

Is Ireland still catholic?

IRELAND
Vatican Insider

[the survey - The Association of Catholic Priests]

A major survey of the views of Irish Catholics reveals a strong divergence from Roman Catholic teaching on such issues as sexual morality, celibacy, women’s ordination, and homosexuality

Gerard O'Connell

Is Ireland still Catholic? That question is being asked following the publication in Dublin, April 12, of a major survey of the views of contemporary Irish Catholics.

The survey reveals that a majority hold views on sexual morality, celibacy, the ordination of women, homosexuality and several other issues that are in contrast with current Catholic Church teaching.

In response to the shortage of priests, 87% of Irish Catholics say priests should be allowed to marry, 77% support women’s ordination, 72% favor the ordination of mature married men. Even more significantly, 75% say the Catholic Church’s teaching on sexuality is not relevant to their own lives or to their families. The 25% that find such teachings relevant are frequent church -goers or people over 55.